Swearing…
My posts keep generating these really good comments from people. The downside is they deserve heavier response than I like to leave in the comments section. So here’s a response to my mom’s comments from the last post (thanks by the way Mom. I really do appreciate your reading and responding!) It actually started as a comment, but it got upgraded to post status, cause it got way too long 
Hey Mom. This might seem kinda shallow, responding online, but I figure I want other people to get my view on some of this. I was eventually going to get here on this blog, but other topics are taking up my time… So here goes
Its a valid concern, especially the holiness aspect of it. What I see in it is this: Music is a big piece of my life. I like it a lot. Maybe too much sometimes. Its one of the few things I’ve gotten into as a past-time of sorts, kinda like some people collect stamps or coins. I get into music…. I appreciate the sound of music and the way people craft it. I think creating it one of the coolest talents God gives people, it just really speaks to me. And I don’t think its a bad thing, the enjoyment of something like music or art. My purpose for doing it is to find enjoyment in it, to be able to learn from it, to glorify God in it, and to reach other people with it. The song posted speaks to me of the need for humility, that that should be a huge distinction between us and the world, mostly because the world can spot pride and/or false humility from miles away. Genuine humility is really important to set us apart.
This gets me partly into the other side of what you bring up. Words used in a song like that (namely the words you would object to in that song) are, in my mind, just that. They are used to denote a feeling, an emotion, or to describe something. It carries negative connotations in conservative, polite society, which in some ways, is probably good. But in secular environments, like the kind I am around from time to time now, and which I look forward to living in soon, those words are normal, commonplace, nobody thinks twice before using them. They are just descriptors, means of expressing frustration, anger, to enhance those emotions. It isn’t corrupt talk, or perverse speech. Its just a word someone somewhere termed as impolite or unacceptable in society. Some of the words carry a negative history, which is lost on most people who use those words. Language is a funny thing… Its extremely culturally conditioned, and my culture is becoming very much separated from what I grew up in. And when I look at those verses you gave and others I have studied before, I hear a cry for the intent of those words to be pure, to be holy, not the words themselves. Words are used to convey a message, the words themselves shouldn’t be the object of our focus. I think we react to certain words far too strongly sometimes while missing the point those words are used to convey. What is the point then? Excellent quote from Tony Campolo illustrates this point:
“I have three things I’d like to say today. First, while you were sleeping last night, 30,000 kids died of starvation or diseases related to malnutrition. Second, most of you don’t give a shit. What’s worse is that you’re more upset with the fact that I said ’shit’ than the fact that 30,000 kids died last night.”
The kind of ‘hypocrisy’ might I call it? he highlights in that quote really resonates with me.
So back to topic, the writers of that song are not Christians, they aren’t seeking what God desires of us. But I believe that somehow, whether because they know what God has placed in peoples hearts (a sense of wrong and right), or they simply don’t have a clue and they are just missing purpose in life, they know that pride in pointless things in this life is bad. I look at that, and I know why pride is bad! That song speaks to me, gives me another example and call to be humble, and I like that. I think God can redeem anything for good, even if intended for bad.
And this is the heart of my position in this: How do we come at things like this? The way I see Phil. 4:8-9: “Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. What you have learned and received and heard and seen in me—practice these things, and the God of peace will be with you.” Paul doesn’t say let the things you listen to, participate in, watch be of this quality (though it is certainly good if they are), he says let the things you think about hold these qualities. What do I take away from a movie I watch? What do I get out of a song I listen to? Does it cause me to contemplate things that are pure? things that are commendable? excellent? praiseworthy? etc. I think anything can be useful for building Christians up in love, in purity, in holiness, if that is what we take away from it. I can’t use that as an excuse to watch porn, go out getting drunk, being best of friends with those who compromise my morals. Why? Because those things pull me away from pondering things of the qualities that Paul describes.
As far as looking or becoming like the world, there is a very delicate balance to hold there, in one “becoming all things to all men so that I might save some” and “be holy for I am holy.” Do I have that balance, not perfectly, or even very well perhaps. But my belief is that language is a non-issue in my culture today. What the world needs to see is a different in action, in how we treat other people because we are Christians, by how we care for those in need, by how we love, by our humility. People my age could care less what language I use to present a message, the could care less about the message too! What they want to see, what they are desperately looking for, I believe, is someone who is crazy enough to live out who Jesus is to them. Thats the difference we need to be, not the words we choose to use. Just my opinion. And I don’t think that I’m criticizing you for not doing that either, ’cause I admire you and Dad a lot for the way you live. It was huge for me to have examples like you as my parents in my life as I grew up. Its through you two that I met my Savior! And that means a heck of a lot to me.
So to wrap up, music like I listen to is not good for everyone. Perhaps I shouldn’t have posted it. Perhaps I was not thoughtful enough of people who are caused to stumble because of these things, and that is wrong of me. And conversations like this cause me to think again about how I do things like this, so this has been beneficial to me, and hopefully makes me more conscious of being careful. Thanks Mom. And thank you for writing me in love. That means more than anything. I love you and thank you for continuing to care for me especially when you disagree with me.
The “garbage in, garbage out” theory only holds water if you ignore man’s rational capacity. I am not a computer. It isn’t what goes in a man that makes him unclean.
kevin
April 6, 2008 at 3:26 am
Well, Luke, I’ve pondered this and prayed over it all weekend, and need to just write this out now and move on. Thanks for being open to differing opinions, because I REALLY differ with you here, as you well know. I hope you’ll really hear me out, and not just politely nod your head.
I am going to try to address your post from the top down. First, your thought that enjoying listening to different styles of music, regardless of the content of the lyrics, or what the various sounds may stir up in someone, and comparing that to someone else who enjoys collecting stamps or coins, seems a bit of a stretch to me. I am not saying people can’t truly enjoy music, it has been interesting to watch that grow in you, but I do think there is a moral line that one certainly can cross over…to listen to ANYthing because you “enjoy it” could apply to all kinds of other sins, if one were inclined to go that route. Anybody could then say….I am going to watch ANYthing, because I admire how they took that particular picture, or I admire how they shot that particular scene….that is nonsense. Coins and stamps don’t defile your mind …. arguably, I suppose they could, but I don’t think that is a reasonable comparison.
I would really, honestly like to know HOW you think you glorify God when listening to the trashy lyrics that often go along with the music you have come to “enjoy”? I am not offering a challenge, it is an honest I WANT TO KNOW question. You’ve said it before and I just can’t see it. If it were JUST music, I might be able to buy it (might), but the words/lyrics DO matter. I’ll fight you on that one till I die, I guess. Unless of course you can convince me, Biblically, that what Kevin above said…that garbage in – garbage out doesn’t hold water. (sorry Kevin, I’m sure you are a very nice person)
Next item….you were talking about people being able to spot hypocrisy and how they hate it. I agree completely. They should. Hypocrisy in Christians has done much harm, even to the wonderful title of being called a Christian, to the point that some genuine Christians don’t want to be identified as Christian? HOW sad. I suppose it IS just a word, but, I still want to be proudly called a Christian, bearing my Savior’s name, rather than change my name to any other more acceptable name. Likely it won’t be too many years before some hypocrite ruins that next name/title too, and they’ll have to think up another one. I will chose to do my teeny tiny part, as an obscure wife and mother who LOVES her LORD, and be as authentic a Christian as I can be, by the grace of God, so that maybe, just maybe, I can influence someone’s opinion (even if it is “just” my kids) that being an authentic Christian is something THEY want to be too.
That said, Luke, I also think those same observant people can spot someone who is trying to look or sound the part of a world they are not a part of. You can swear all you want, I suppose, to try to fit into a certain society you’d like to minister to, but I think you miss the point. Those words may not mean a thing to that group because they weren’t brought up knowing or being taught any differently. They aren’t to blame for that, BUT it doesn’t mean you have to adopt something you know is wrong in order to fit in and “relate” and be real to them so that you can be heard, as if that is the only way you can show them the real love of Jesus.
I believe words DO mean something. The more I’ve thought about it this weekend, the more I believe it. I thought of that Tony Compolo quote (remind me to tell you MY Tony Compolo story sometime) and thought, how wrong, even judgemental, to think that someone who would be offended by “that” word, would not care just as deeply about the dying children. A person can object to a word and still care very deeply…..and not just care, but DO something about it within their means and abilities and as the Lord leads. Being offended by words that have been known to be offensive by the majority of the population for ?? who knows how long, doesn’t mean we don’t care as much, or love as much, as anyone who thinks that they can use those words and it just doesn’t matter. I will grant you the same credit, that someone who chooses to use a curse word over something less offensive, also doesn’t care any less than a pure-speaking person.
I will say, you bet I would be offended to hear Mr. Compolo phrase his concern for dying children by trying to use the shock treatment and throw out a big fat swear word. But, that’s me. I think maybe (maybe?) we might muster up real HELP for those children by gentler, less offensive means. Let’s help the children (or the orphans, or the widows, or the homeless, or the abused, or the persecuted church, or our lost neighbors, or our suffering brothers and sisters…………………). That’s real Christianity. Not looking for shock value in our words. Or looking to fit in by our words.
Language IS an issue, Luke. You, me, they…. can’t just decide some word no longer has meaning. I think sometimes that is where you are going with that “who can know truth” question. Who can know truth? Who can know what any particular word means? I mean, how far can you go with that line of thinking…. Words DO have meanings. The example that kept coming to my mind this weekend, I wonder if I can convey it in a way that shows what I mean. If you want to say that “Mr. Compolo’s word” no longer means what it has meant for who-knows-how long…Ok, let’s say it now means a rose. You can’t just, well, I suppose you can, but imagine going up to someone who owns and tends a beautiful rose bush and say, “Wow, that ___ is gorgeous. Can I smell it? Can I take one home for my precious wife?”. You can’t just make up new meanings to words. Well, again, I guess technically you CAN, but, really, you can’t.
So, you say the people who live in the environment you hope to live and minister in use swear words all the time and think nothing about it. They are just words…don’t mean anything. Again, likely not their fault, but that doesn’t change the FACT that those words DO have meaning, and are curse words and have always been known as curse words (for the most part). Culture does occassionally change the meaning of a word over time. (example: gay) Used to mean something completely different. And…may I sheepishly add: SWEET!!!
Another example that came to mind was using God’s name in vain. People DO it all the time. Lots of people do it and don’t think twice about it. But WE are Christians. We have the Bible. And we are commanded NOT to use the Lord’s name in vain. I pray that I am NEVER desensitized to that. Just because other people do it, and it doesn’t “mean” anything to them, doesn’t mean it isn’t offensive to OUR God. I think that is the very same principle with swearing. Just because other people do it, and don’t think anything about it, doesn’t mean YOU have the same freedom with your mouth. You are a vessel of God’s holiness, Luke. WE are children of God, and our God IS Holy….our speech, our actions, our thoughts, all of it needs to be glorifying to him. I really REALLY don’t believe swearing is glorifying to our holy God. Not even to make a REALLY important point. Wouldn’t it be so much more God-glorifying, if you were to live among those people, to love them, be able to relate to them, help them, maybe even lead them to the LORD, by being holy in your actions and words and WHOLE lifestyle??? rather than trying to “fit in” with their lifestyle which knows nothing of holiness, YET.
Once again, it almost seems judgemental that some seem to think that a trying-to-be-holy in speech and action Christian, doesn’t really care, or is being hypocritical, or won’t lower themselves to live and work among unholy, unsaved people. I think you CAN do it, Luke. I don’t think you have to look and sound just like them to be accepted by them so that they will listen to you and allow you close enough to share the Gospel. If God calls you to do it, HE will open the doors and provide the way to do it and remain holy and pure. YOUR personal walk with the Lord matters. People are watching. But much more important than that is that we should desire to glorify God with ALL of our life. Do you REALLY believe it doesn’t matter and that God doesn’t care if you, or I, swear?
I also thought of several people I know who became free from swearing when they became saved….they no longer “had to swear” or were amazed that God cleansed that part of their life. They were genunine conversions, and were cleansed of what they considered a SIN that now it seems you want to “allow” Christian to reintroduce into their lives without guilt? Curse words, swear words, whatever you want to call them, are just that, and are unfitting for a saved by a HOLY God person.
And I can’t help but think…where will this line of thinking end?? What other sins could be justified by this line of thinking?
Living out Jesus’ message is a great life goal, dear Luke, but it is my opinion that it needs to be accompanied by HIS example of holiness. If we truly want to be like Jesus, and show an unsaved world what HE was like, we need to be holy. We know that doesn’t save us, but we do it because we love and honor and adore HIM, who died for us. Words DO matter. A godly lifestyle DOES matter. What goes in certainly CAN defile us and what comes OUT can defile others….who Christ died for.
Being “crazy enough” as you put it, to live out who Jesus is, is GREAT!!! WHO was Jesus? Did He swear? Would he listen to the music despite the lyrics just because He “enjoyed” it? Would he watch the same movies, read the same books? We don’t really know because he lived in a different place in history, but I think if we honestly aren’t trying to justify our own passions and desires and what “we” want, and study HIM and his life, I think we might choose differently. If not for our own sakes, then maybe following His example of dying to SELF and thinking of others as more important than ourselves. A worthy life goal.
THE END. Ü I love you with ALL my hearT (as Hopie would say) I really do.
Debbie vdH
April 6, 2008 at 11:43 pm
EPH 4:29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen.
Luke,
I hear what you are saying my friend but I guess I have never met anyone who built me up in the Lord who did not take verses like this seriously. As a matter of fact, all of chapter 4 speaks to the issue of how we conduct ourselves as believers (the new creation) compared to the flesh. I have met Christians who can cuss like sailors. Do I doubt their salvation? Not really.
But in my opinion, the language they (whoever) use gives me a little glimpse into their heart (and mine when when I have decided to let one out!). Do they care about the world around them (enough to watch what they say, even if the words they use are culturally conditioned)? Would they speak to their Lord with that kind of language and it be done with respect? Where is the humilty when a person is careless or flipant about their language? Remember, God gives grace to the humble and He opposes the proud (James 4:6).
You can ask the same questions concerning music. How about this: if Christ stood with you while you listened to _______ (you fill in the blank) how would you feel? Would you be uncomfortable? Do you think He would be pleased with the choice of music (lyrics, whatever)?
Now don’t give me the rationale that Jesus hung out with sinners. I know that. If Jesus were here today He would be in the less desirable places we would not regularly hang out at. He would be where sinners are. And we should minister among the “crowds” as well (after all we are sinners as well). What I am asking is what would you do if He hung out with you? What would you participate in? Listen to? Say?
Now you know me well enough by now that I am not a legalistic, blindly conservative, narrow-minded Christian. I think we need to engage our culture. I believe we need to take care of the environment. We need to feed the hungry. Visit the prisons. Take care of widows. I will work alongside anyone who will do what is right and biblical in regard to these and any other isssues. But I need to take seriously 2 Corinthians 5:15 as I do so or all else will be wasted energy…
“And he died for all, that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for him who died for them and was raised again.”
We need to be careful of our motives for what we do. Are we living for ourselves? Or are we living for God? Are our choices based on rationalizing our behavior or are they based on conforming ourselves to the likeness and image of Christ (Rom 8:29)? Are we living as proud people or are we striving to be humble?
The cross should define our lives…everything about our lives. And as a result I may need to give up something in order to make much of Christ in the process (I love the Stven Curtis Chapman song about that!). How that plays out into your life specifically is between you and God. But keep in mind, you have a friend in KY who is willing to grapple with those specifics. I am here for you as I know many others are.
I love you Luke!!
Ps..
By the way, the garbage in and out thing helps illustrate a principle. Yes, it is isn’t what goes in that makes a man unclean. We are sinners from birth. We don’t need any help there. But we also draw from our culture and our sin takes that and twists it in new and creative ways. There is indeed “garbage” out there and we tend to feed on it as a steady diet all to often!
Dan Oberg
April 7, 2008 at 5:36 pm
I have to say a few things in response here:
1) You can disagree (as some have), but I am sticking by my statement that within my generation, many words carry an entirely different meaning in a different context from what the generation before me knew them as. Some of the older people who responded above are just not going to understand that, and its okay! You don’t have to. Society as a whole is changing to some degree, I am convinced, and it is fascinating to be a part of the generation in the mix of change. I hope that we’re being generous and humble with those of you who disagree with what is changing.
2) I am aware that certain areas are poor environments to swear in or listen to music of my kind around and that it would highly irritate or offend many people or just straight up be inappropriate. I am conscious and deliberate about what I say and why. Does that mean I don’t do it at all when ‘those’ groups aren’t around? No! why? Because I don’t believe that it is wrong and I don’t believe that Jesus condemns it either. Is that hypocritical? I hope not. I think it is an application of restraint from action that would cause a brother to stumble. But teachings like that by Paul never forbade continuing in the action when the weaker brother wasn’t around. I am hopeful that I am not simply looking for justification when I interpret some of the verses given above differently than you.
I think many people who responded to this are making very arbitrary or personal choices about what Jesus would or would not like. I think we make personal convictions into God’s convictions far too often. My beliefs are not the only way God can be or is leading people. I don’t believe yours are either. Thats why there are stronger and weaker Christians described in the Bible. And I am NOT claiming I am a stronger Christian than anyone else by this statement. I am stating that my convictions are elsewhere, and swearing is not a struggle point for me. I struggle in many areas any of you are probably far better at than I. And I’m not judging/condemning anyone for thinking differently than me in this way, but I will disagree with you. I can’t say which way is “more noble” and I don’t think its up to me to decide…
3) “Garbage” is a very arbitrary designation that falls in different places for different people. There are cold hard lines the Bible draws about issues I will stand on your side of some line, but I don’t think this is one. Also asking what Jesus would watch, what he would choose to hear, what books he would read… is interesting. For one, I think he wouldn’t be, I think he’d be out reaching the people, not pursuing himself in any fashion, agreed, though I might disagree with you about how that would look. For two, I don’t see where anyone can get off judging what kinds of things Jesus would be listening to or watching coming from your personal set of standards. That is setting us up in God’s place to make those decisions for him. But three, I don’t think we can take what we know about Jesus from the Bible and apply it the same, coming from the context he was centered in and putting it into today as easily as you try to make it.
And thats longer than I wanted to go, but hey… now I think I’m done.
plukevdh
April 7, 2008 at 9:08 pm
Hey, Luke.
I don’t have the time to fully anylize the post right now, but here’s my quick two cents before I get a chance to get into this more depth.
I think that your mom and Dan pretty much covered the Biblical-interpretation, but, as a writer and artist, I have something to say.
I’ve told you this before–when you taught a Wendsday night class on a related subject.
Words hold meaning. Profound meaning–especially in art. Collectively, in any form, be it songs, poetry, or prose, they tell us what it means, where the artist is coming from, etc… Essentially, words are like the different paints a painter uses to paint a picture: it creates a collective work made up of small details.
Remember when I say this: I am a poet. I am a musician. I write fiction on a daily basis.
When an artist uses “swearing” in a piece, it’s like puking on the canvas.
It’s for shock value, usually–not for deep artistic meaning. If someone IS trying to use swearing for artistic purposes, they don’t know anything about the english language, or they’re trying to communicate that they’re unexpressive boors.
I’ll make a more detailed comment when I have a chance to anylize your posts and comments.
A.N.B.
April 14, 2008 at 11:13 am